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Thread - Little people go to the Lords.
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peter waller
24th Jan '09 07:20 
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What has gratified me, Richard, is the amount of p.m.'s that I have been getting from the non boating fraternity.
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GaryCantley
24th Jan '09 09:29 |
To all those that have visited London this week and just as important those that filed petitions.
THANKS |
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old salt
24th Jan '09 10:05 |
I think that I can safely say,a big thank you to all on behalf of us who do not live in Norfolk but who are just as compassionate about the Broads.John
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Gruntfuttock
24th Jan '09 11:41 
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It strikes me that there is quite a bit of evidence of support for the petitioners' actions from the Broads-loving masses, not just on this forum but in other visible places and also in private communication.
Yet it's easy for Their Lordships and the BA to see only the petitions and not the supporting opinion. To be fair, that is their job and whether anyone is able to gauge levels of public support is irrelevant to the parliamentary process, nobody is counting votes. In the latter stages, opinion could only be shown by depositing a petition and it's way too late for that now. In any case, words of support which aren't substantiated by a study of the Bill and its potential effects are of little use to the House or the BA. They possibly amount to little more than an expression of anti-Authority feelings and the legal process isn't concerned with whether we love or hate the BA. Those words of support are very easily dismissed by those who don't want to hear them. But support from people who suffer genuinely substantiated worries about the Bill's contents is valuable and it's unfortunate that there seems to be no way to make it wider knowledge. Perhaps there is? Perhaps it might go some way to balancing the repeated public announcements of "only 14 petitions" and "no boating organisation". In truth there isn't a boating organisation which represents the collective voice of Broads boaters, the clubs and associations all suffer from minority membership. For many, the thought of giving evidence to a Parliamentary Select Committee, the travelling, the absence from work or family, the prospect of being subjected to open interrogation by an experienced barrister, are all sound reasons for not petitioning. The process doesn't make it easy for petitioners. While the Bill's promoters are enjoying their salaries and expense accounts the petitioners and their agents are working entirely under their own steam. Those who don't have that ability to appear in Westminster do still have valuable things to say and should be urged to make themselves heard, at least in Norfolk & Suffolk. Don't wait to be consulted, it won't happen. GF |
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peter waller
24th Jan '09 16:31
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Grunts, perhaps, when this is all over, we can look at forming an all embracing user group, both to support and to lobby the BA over relevant matters. Clearly the NSBA, at the moment, is not that body. And sure as little green apples is green it's not Packman's chosen disciples, his poodle forum. We need a body that encompasses the Broads as a whole. Any ideas? Or is there a re-invented body just waiting in the wings?
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Paul Howes
24th Jan '09 17:16 |
Er, yes, Peter. There IS only one society that looks at the Broads as a whole: conservation, navigation and recreation. You and I are both committee members, as is one other petitioner. That said, we aren't all trouble-makers and even those of us who are like to be constructive most of the time!
What I am trying to say is that the Broads Society has changed quite a bit from the past when it was regarded as a poodle of certain parties and by some as even uninterested in the views of its own membership. It's our desire to see the Society grow and prosper. We can only do that if we start by listening to our members and then actually doing something. The fact that we now have an active forum is testimony to early signs of change. If anyone would like to consider joining, please do get in touch with any of us or go to the Society's site at http://www.broads-society.org.uk Paul Howes |
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peter waller
24th Jan '09 17:27
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Thank you, Paul. I just thought that I would leave it to someone else to state the almost obvious!!
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Gruntfuttock
24th Jan '09 20:18
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Other Associations are available.
I didn't intend to introduce a commercial break! For balance, one could always consider aligning with the other qualifying organisation. One which did actually get involved with previous stages of the Bill's development. Well, kind of. If you do write in make sure you include your postcode. 'Norfolk' won't help them to them find you. To the Inland Waterwings Association it's just a green and blue blob with strange bendy canals on Goolie Earth. Of course there's always the National Association of Boot Owners. They are, after all, consulted by the BA on the appointment of Navigation Committee members. Their East Anglian member must be happy with that. And he's not likely to get into any arguments over it. GF |
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Andy Frost
25th Jan '09 10:59 |
I can't add a big enough thanks to all , who as has been said , have give up valuable time , in this very worthy cause.
Your sterling efforts are being noticed. Thanks Andy. |
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old salt
26th Jan '09 09:19 |
I think that you would be surprised if you only knew how many people had writen in to their M.P. and the Norfolk M.P.about this issue.I have found that the person giving the most encouragement was Miss Anne Mc.Intosh the Shadow Minister for the Environment.She at least has taken Natural England and DEFRA to task especially over the proposed flooding and abandonment of the sea defences.Good luck to you all.John
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Old Frank
26th Jan '09 14:04 
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A "Dear John" letter,
Anne McIntosh is no longer shadow environment spokesperson. You might have spent too long talking to yourself on the EDP 24 RSPB thread. Flooding is apparently the only concern of a single poster on that site - and any thread that he contributes towards, he inevitably attempts to turn the discussion towards flooding. He is in danger of creating his very own credibility gap - and apparently dragging you into the same hole alongside him. OF |
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Tree Hugger
26th Jan '09 14:08 
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Confused, the say the least by the pronunciations of new NSBA chair Mark Wells.
to wit: We have always supported the bill's safety provisions. It is unfortunate there had to be so much wrangling for so long over other disputed parts of it. But now agreement had been reached between all the major organisations, both locally and nationally, it is time to move on. I'd accept that historically, the Blazers have never been the most co-ordinated bunch on the block, but surely two of the NSBA executive committee are actual petitioners - so presumably actually responsible for a degree of the too much wrangling MW refers to? This Bear will watch with interest as this close-knit band of fellow-thinkers touts for the right to represent the water-using community on the broads. At least their meetings sound as though they're going to be more fun? |
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Gruntfuttock
26th Jan '09 18:08
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My dear Frank, I do think you've given the young lady an unexpected shock. Old habits die hard, I suppose.
Miss McIntosh wasn't shuffled, she's staying in the same post as was confirmed on Friday last. That of course, will be of no interest to Mr Wells. GF |
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Paul Howes
26th Jan '09 20:50 |
Day 5, post 1
BROADS AUTHORITY BILL DAY FIVE Monday, 26 January 2009 Before: Berkeley, L (Chairman) Brougham and Vaux, L Methuen, L Oxburgh, L Trimble, L Ordered at 11.00 am: that Counsel and Parties be called in. 1631. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We understand that Mr Howes wishes to make a concluding statement on behalf of the last Petitioner, Mollie Howes. I hope, Mr Howes, you can keep it brief because we have got a full programme for today, but I invite you to make a short statement. 1632. MR HOWES: Thank you, my Lord Chairman. My mother talked about the statistics for the deaths and fires on the Broads and I think she made a strong case to say that safety issues requiring legislation are unproven. Just how much effort should we go to to save one or two lives which individually, of course, are tragedies and reduce boat fires when the legislation does not have a direct impact on these things and when almost one half of the boats who have had fires in the last two years already had boat safety certificates? 1633. My mother is against the inclusion of adjacent waters and, if I might just explain for a moment, when she talked about the possibility of the Marine Navigation Bill she was not referring to that Bill particularly but merely that the extension of adjacent waters to other parts of the Broads renders them liable to other legislation such as what might be proposed. 1634. Mr George attempted to say that my motherâs quoting of the financial statistics for the Authorityâs meeting last September was incorrect. I understand his point, but, if I might just explain to the Committee, those accounts are separated into four elements: item A, corporate services, item B, countryside management, item C, planning and strategy, and item D, waterways. We accept Mr Georgeâs point that some of the salaries listed under âwaterwaysâ are for the general account but it does seem to us a little bit strange because where salaries are quoted under âwaterwaysâ you would think they were for the navigation account. It appears that the accounting is, shall we say, less than completely transparent today and that makes us very much more sensitive about what the accounts might look like tomorrow. 1635. Mrs Howes is against the increasing role of the whole Authority in navigation matters and would prefer that the Navigation Committee retains some of its original executive functions even if it then delegates those to officers. She talked about the changes to the Navigation Committee. That happened last year. Mr George then questioned my mother on the process used in the outcomes. The point at issue here is not that the outcome was necessarily better or worse but merely that the Authority had signed a side agreement with the Royal Yachting Association and British Marine Federation last year to consult the Navigation Committee before any such changes were made and then appears to have ignored that agreement. 1636. I note that at the end of her submission Mrs Howes referred to a couple of safety issues. One was that the Authority appeared to be rather slow at dealing with a particular matter where some boats were holed, and the second one was that the navigation officer should be properly qualified. I cannot say anything more than that other Petitioners are also saying similar things and that I note in particular that that last point will be followed up by another Petition. Thank you, my Lords. 1637. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr Howes. Could we please clear the room now so that we can deliberate about the two Petitions we heard on Friday? 1638. MR GEORGE: My Lord, before you clear the room, you did invite me to come back on the question of Breydon Water. I am very happy to come back after your adjournment but I just wondered at what stage you would wish to hear me on that matter. 1639. CHAIRMAN: Shall we hear it now? (Agreed) Yes, please. 1640. MR GEORGE: Could I ask that there be circulated a note, âControl of Breydon Waterâ? (Same handed) This matter arose on last Thursdayâs transcript at page 52, paragraph 1521. You invited me to come back. This note sets out what the position will be for controls on Breydon Water. Perhaps there are three particular matters to which I should draw your Lordshipsâ attention. The first is that whereas tab 18 in the bundle had referred to âclosuresâ, and that was the matter, my Lord, Lord Trimble, drew attention to, those closures in the first place had not been by the port authority under any form of directions and, secondly, they were not complete closures; they were advisory closures, as indeed Mrs Wakelin said at Day Three, pages 43-44, paragraph 925, as referred to in page 3 of the note. They were occasions where the rangers had said to people that it would be unwise to go through and they had not gone through but they were not technically formal closures. 1641. The second additional matter to mention is not actually in the note but may be of some help to your Lordships, and that is to know that as a vessel is proceeding towards Breydon Water it goes past Reedham Quay, which is about five miles upstream, and the aim would be that notification would be given at that point if in practice people were to be strongly urged not to go through Breydon Water. If they were coming from the north down the River Bure there is not such a convenient point but there is a point about 400 metres north at the Great Yarmouth Yacht Station and again there would be notices displayed there. There are mooring points available at both those places and there is also another mooring point much closer to Breydon Water for those coming along the Yare, so that provision is made for those people. 1642. The last matter related to this is that my Lord, Lord Brougham and Vaux raised the question of vessels travelling at night and the potential danger to them. What I should have made clear to him was that under the navigation byelaws vessels travelling at night need certain types of lights and it happens that none of the hired craft meets those lighting specifications so that in regard to the hired craft, which, as your Lordships were given evidence on, the substantial majority of the vessels will not be sailing at night in any event. I ought to have made that clear. Those are the points. 1643. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr George. 1644. LORD TRIMBLE: The points at which you said that notification could be given â I wonder if you could give me just a little bit more detail on that. I am not familiar with the locations that you mentioned, so perhaps you can indicate where they are, we have a map, and just as to whether they are suited for --- the shape of those points. 1645. MR GEORGE: The first is a point which I will just identify to you. Reedham Quay is just at the top of the Haddiscoe Cut, with which your Lordships will be familiar, on the plan at 1B. If your Lordship sees where the Haddiscoe Cut joins the River Yare, in the vicinity there one has Reedham Quay. 1646. LORD TRIMBLE: Yes; that is several miles away from Breydon. 1647. MR GEORGE: That is why I said that that one is five miles away, which is in a way beneficial because it means that if you know it is going to happen you can give people lots of warning and there is provision for mooring at that point. If you have passed through there there is no very obvious point for what I may call a bankside notice, but if you do reach Breydon Water, where there would be a ranger in these circumstances, and if you were at that point notified that it was dangerous, there is provision at that point also where you could moor somewhere. There is a public house called The Berni Arms and close to that there are moorings, so you are not, in other words, in a desperate situation. 1648. LORD TRIMBLE: How is the notification given during night or in fog? 1649. MR GEORGE: As I said, so far as the majority of craft are concerned they will not be travelling at night because of the reason which I have just mentioned. So far as the other vessels are concerned, if the conditions were so unsafe the plan, as I understand it, would be to have a ranger there, for the very obvious reason that one could not be sure that someone would be able to see the notice, but the provision will be precisely the same as is the situation at the present time. If, on the other hand, you are coming down the River Bure â and your Lordships will see the River Bure on that same plan which comes down to the other end, as it were, the eastern end of Breydon Water â you will go past the Great Yarmouth Yacht Station and that is where there are moorings and again where notices will be displayed. It is not anticipated that night is likely to be the critical period but, as indicated, there could be general directions specifying the conditions for travelling through Breydon Water. 1650. LORD TRIMBLE: That is the other point I was going to make, because you said that the present arrangements are only advisory closures and you are talking about giving advice; you are not asserting a power to close. 1651. MR GEORGE: In the past there has been a power to close which lies with Great Yarmouth Port Authority, and so far as the Broads Authority is concerned it has not had any powers to close but it has exercised a ranger function and it has given advice, and the effect of that advice was shown in the table which indicated that in practice people seemed to have accepted the advice and it was recorded as a closure. For the future there are going to be the various powers, which are set out in the note which I have given in, both to give general directions and to give special directions. 1652. LORD TRIMBLE: In order to form a better judgment on this I think it would be desirable to see what is the express power that Yarmouth have to close. 1653. MR GEORGE: Their powers to give general directions and special directions are almost identical to the powers which we are seeking in this Bill for ourselves. In other words, they have a broad range and we could pass to your Lordships a copy of the provisions of the Great Yarmouth Port Authority Act which gives them those powers. 1654. LORD TRIMBLE: The reason why I am pressing on this is that I am not convinced that the general and special directions do give you a power to close. 1655. MR GEORGE: My Lord, if first of all that document could be circulated, which is the section of the Act, (Same handed), if one then turns to the general directions, which is Clause 4 of the Bill, as far as Clause 4(2)(a) is concerned you can give a general direction designating an area which is not to be used, and, most clearly in the case of most vessels, you have got the power under 4(2)(e)(ii) to prohibit entry into â⦠any channel during any temporary obstruction â¦â, under (e)(i) you have a power to prohibit entry, and under (f), again, you have got the particular power to prohibit entry in times of poor visibility. 1656. LORD TRIMBLE: On 4(2)(f), it talks about âpoor visibility due to the weather or to the presence of dust or smoke, or at times of high windsâ. That is analogous to the situation that has been encountered in Breydon Water in terms of fog and sea state, and it does clearly say âprohibitingâ, and because of the precision of 4(2)(d) it seems to me that you cannot then really read 4(2)(b) or (e) as giving a power to prohibit. Then 4(2)(f), which does give a power to prohibit, cannot apply to any pleasure craft, so I think that you are in difficulty in showing that there is a clear power to close. Certainly it is open to you to give advice and say to people that it is dangerous to proceed, but I am not sure that you have a power to close. 1657. I have not had a chance to read these extracts from the Great Yarmouth Port Authority but I wonder if you could point to me where is the provision of the Great Yarmouth Port Authority? 1658. MR GEORGE: First of all, your Lordship is entirely right because the effect of 4(4) is you cannot use it for any pleasure craft. The important thing is that, so far as weather conditions, save in an emergency it is unlikely you would be using a general direction; you would be making a special direction in that circumstance, which will bring you into Clause 6, and in an emergency a direction under Clause 6, that is a special direction, can be given to all vessels, and a direction given under Clause 6 can regulate, for instance, the time and manner in which any vessel can enter and regulate a whole variety of matters, and it is believed, and I would say, that one could use a special direction there both aimed at an individual vessel, or as a generality at all vessels in an emergency to regulate the usage of Breydon Water in those circumstances. 1659. CHAIRMAN: Lord Trimble, could I just ask Mr George for some clarification in relation to this subject? I recall previously when we were discussing Schedule 1 you gave an estimate of the time it would take to obtain a general direction. Could you just remind the Committee 1660. MR GEORGE: A non emergency general direction is going to require a considerable amount of time because it has to be a consultative process and it, therefore, is no good for a particular situation which has blown up unless it is in a general form which specifies certain weather conditions in which, let us say, Breydon Water is to be closed. So that is something which could be worked on and you could have a general direction which specified the wind forces, for instance, or the conditions, but that is going to take some time. 1661. Then you also have your emergency general directions as well as special directions and in particular special directions made in an emergency, and a special direction in an emergency can apply to all vessels. 1662. CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Lord Trimble. I interrupted you. 1663. LORD TRIMBLE: I would be much comfortable with that if it was expressed, explicit. It is not explicit and that bothers me, particularly when you compare it with the other provisions that are so reluctant to actually say âcloseâ, and in none of these provisions does the word âclosureâ actually appear. 1664. MR GEORGE: The real situation is to be able to require the use of motive power of any vessel, and probably that is going to be the key. If someone is going to go through without motor power and wind conditions are such that you really do need motor power, and plainly under Clause 6(1)(n) there is a power to make a special direction requiring the use of motive power. Now, that is not the same as a total closure and, of course, we are anxious in general not to be using our powers so that they completely interfere with people sailing: we are only concerned with trying to make sure that people can proceed in a safe manner. That is the way that the provisions in the Bill have been directed. 1665. We have discovered, and your Lordships have heard, that the boating interests, in particular the pleasure boating interests, are very concerned that powers to achieve closures should be very severely restricted, and that is why you cannot have a general direction achieving a closure. That is the result of Clause 4(4) which has been inserted at the request of the yachting interests. 1666. LORD TRIMBLE: I have a recollection, with regard to Clause 6(1)(n), that the provision about the use of motive power would only apply to vessels that had motive power, and would not apply to purely sailing vessels. 1667. MR GEORGE: That is right. 1668. LORD TRIMBLE: I take your point at the end about the sensitivity of closure, which is why I am going round this issue, because if it is envisaged at any time that you would want for reasons of safety in Breydon Water to close it then I do think you would be best to have that explicit and not rely on things which are not explicit and on which, in the context of the Bill and in the context of the safeguards you put in with regard to closure, it is a bit difficult to make the argument, I think. 1669. MR GEORGE: My trouble is I am not able to extend the scope of the Bill by adding further provisions at this stage. Your Lordships have a power to limit what we are seeking but, if there are additional powers which would be more severe in their impact, we have a power under 6(1)(b) to make a direction regulating the time at which and the manner in which any vessel may enter or navigate, so we have that power, but we are not able at this stage to increase that power, as I understand it. 1670. LORD TRIMBLE: Thank you for the note and the comments. I think it is best that I reflect, in fact that we all reflect, on this. 1671. CHAIRMAN: However, Lord Trimble, before we leave that, and I know Lord Methuen wants to come in, do you want Mr George to explain the Great Yarmouth Port Authority paper we have just been given? 1672. LORD TRIMBLE: Yes, if there is any comment he wants to make on that. 1673. MR GEORGE: Clause 15(1), your Lordships will see, is remarkably similar to our Clause 4 in respect of general directions to vessels, but they do not have our Schedule 1 which has got all the protections for the various interests and, so far as Section 16 of the Act, that specifies the circumstance for special directions, and those are the key provisions about special directions which are contained within our Clause 6, and, again, the words used are âregulating and requiringâ notwithstanding that one is in a rather more dangerous port facility, nearer the sea, but again it has been expressed in the similar language in which we have expressed it, and had we come to Parliament seeking powers which were in stronger language than that we might have been open to criticism on that fact. 1674. LORD METHUEN: In Clause 4(4) you have the words âpleasure craftâ. Should âpleasure craftâ be defined in the interpretation section? 1675. MR GEORGE: Pleasure craft are defined in the 1988 Act and where there are definitions in the 1988 Act they are applied into this Act, so Section 25(1) of the 1988 Act defines a âpleasure craftâ, and one reads the two Acts together. 1676. On one related matter of Breydon Water, your Lordships will remember some evidence was given about a particular skipper who had to be rescued on four occasions. The references are in Day 3, page 21, paragraph 745, and the same day, a few pages later, at paragraph 385. My Lords, I want to make one matter clear: Mrs Wakelin referred to that skipper as having been âswept out to seaâ, ie swept out beyond Breydon Water. Having looked at the matter again carefully the Broads Authority is not able to say that the person was âswept outâ of Breydon Water. They know he got into difficulty, that he had to be rescued, but insofar as Mrs Wakelin suggested he was âswept out to seaâ we wish to withdraw and make a correction in that respect. 1677. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr George. 1678. Are there any other questions from the Committee? (None indicated.) 1679. If we can please, then, clear the Committee room so we can deliberate, that would be 1680. very helpful. At 11.25am Counsel and Parties are directed to withdraw and at 11.33am are again called in. 1681. CHAIRMAN: Before I call our first witness, I would first just like to say that the Committee will rise before five oâclock today, probably at ten to or five to, because a number of colleagues have got to get to meetings at five. 1682. Secondly, the Committee has received a letter from Richard Baguley and we have discussed it and I am pleased to read out a short statement so that it goes on the record. 1683. âI apologise to your Lordships and ask that this statement be added to the record. On reading the transcript of Day 4 of the proceedings of your Committee, I realised that, in an endeavour to move on quickly, I deviated from my notes and made an incorrect statement. What I said at 1330, at line 14, was, âWe have been described by the last Chairman as a âlittle menâ in an email he circulated to his board members ...â I would like to clarify that the last Chairman was not the author of the description âlittle menâ, the author was a colleague of the last Chairman and it was his colleagueâs email that the last Chairman circulated. I also apologise to the last Chairman for any offence caused. What I should have said was: âThe last Chairman circulated to his board members an email he received from a colleague which described us as âlittle menâ.â That is end of the letter. 1684. Right, shall we then move on to the evidence of the Norfolk County Association of Parish and Town Councils. Mr Sadler, you are representing them, so could we call Councillor Clive Stockton to come and sit in the chair here, and it is normal to face the Committee. I am so sorry, Mr Stockton, we have changed the order; it is Mr Griggs to come first. 1685. MR SADLER: My Lord Chairman, can I make a point of order really. It is the National Association of Local Councilâs policy that its Chairman of National Council represents the Association first on any debate and any matter, so in that case could I ask your indulgence to change that around and if we could have Councillor Michael Chater, if you would not mind, my Lord. 1686. CHAIRMAN: It is a policy of continuous improvement, is it not! Right, Councillor Michael Chater. COUNCILLOR MICHAEL CHATER, Sworn Examined by MR SADLER 1687. MR SADLER: Councillor Chater, would you please identify to their Lordships your full name. (Councillor Chater) Councillor Michael Chater - C-H-A-T-E-R. 1688. Could you also enlighten them on your role in public life and also with the National Association of Local Councils. (Councillor Chater) Thank you. I am Chairman of the National Association of Local Councils, a councillor within my parish, clearly, and through the elected process through district, county and on to the regional and national body. I also, incidentally, happen to be a Vice Chair of the Regional Assembly and have some experience therefore of town and parish council representation within that aspect of regional government. 1689. Thank you. Could you also give them some idea of your working life on what you have done, what roles you have carried out in public life. (Councillor Chater) My career has been through education and also in higher education and as a national officer working for the Board of Education. I have also worked within county council in its training department and inspection department for education and governance. I still continue to do some voluntary work on governor training in two counties. I am involved with my parish obviously in a wide sphere of work of local councils and within my church I am involved also. 1690. Thank you, Councillor Chater. Could you now turn to your role in the National Association of Local Councils, of which you were Vice Chairman, and give their Lordships the benefit of when you took over as Chairman and the role that you hold within that organisation now, please. (Councillor Chater) For the previous three years I was the elected member as the Vice Chairman of the National Association of Local Councils, working obviously then in co-operation with the then Chairman and with the various committees and bodies, and with the Chief Executive, who has a key role obviously in the negotiations with government and local authorities. I took up the post as an elected member as Chairman of the body in December of last year, 2008, and since then my feet have not touched the ground, thank you! 1691. Could you outline for their Lordships the role that you play within the National Association, in other words where you represent the Association and at what levels? (Councillor Chater) My Lords, I am involved obviously at a variety of levels. The main one of course has got to be in the context of government negotiations, alongside the Chief Executive involved in contact with the Local Government Association and with all the representative bodies with which the National Association is inter-connected, a whole panoply of existing regional, community, rural and urban bodies which we seek contact with, and to be effective in representing our town and parish councils as the first tier of local government. Without that, we feel the democratic process would be denuded and therefore we seek co-operation at all levels. 1692. Could you explain also to their Lordships where we fit into a democratic society and also illustrate to their Lordships where, if we are not included, we have a democratic deficit on any particular local authority? (Councillor Chater) My Lords, if I take really that as an opportunity to give you some background to the National Associationâs work, or NALC as you may be familiar with it. It is the recognised national body that supports and represents the interests of neighbourhoods, parishes, town and local councils. There are a total of 8,500 such local councils and, as you will appreciate, 80,000 local councillors thereby. NALC provide support and advice directly to our member local councils through a network of county associations. These also act to some degree as an electoral college, for instance for the regional aspects. We are actively involved in working with and influencing government and a wide range of stakeholders, both at a national level, and we seek to advance and protect the interests of the local councils and communities we serve. NALC provides national leadership therefore as well as information, support and service in areas such as legal, policy, parliamentary affairs (I have with me the leader of the policy and parliamentary affairs officers section), training, conferences and events. We are asked, my Lords, of our other connections in terms of partnerships and collaboration and I just give you some of the acronyms: CALC, County Association of Local Councils; SLCC, the Society of Local Council Clerks; ACRE; LGA, with which you will be familiar; CCN; One Voice Wales; NABVA and AMI for the marketing side; the Scottish Association of Community Councils; and the UK Alliance for International Development. That give you some idea of our reach. We have three key strategic objectives: firstly, to develop and improve service delivery to our members; secondly, and key, to develop the role of local councils in local government and our communities and communicating part in terms of the message of what we do. Thirdly, in terms of description, as you will be familiar I am sure my Lords, local councils have powers to raise their own funds through precept. They are independently elected and serve electorates ranging from small and rural communities to major cities. They are therefore a very significant part, although the first tier of local government. This first tier then has an employment structure that involves 25,000 staff and, while their annual expenditure is in the region of about £400 million, they have a significant impact on a major proportion of our society and our role is growing in that way, as you know, through other legislation. The first tier of local government strives to improve community well-being and provide better services at a local level. Their work falls into three main categories: representing local community themselves; delivering services to meet local council needs; and working to improve the quality of life in the community. I emphasise the last one, my Lord, because I think it is so key - working to improve the quality of life in our communities. That I think is the interconnection with all our other local authority principal bodies and with government and with community and stakeholders. Local council provide and maintain a range of services. I will illustrate some of them. I could make it a very lengthy list, as I am sure you will know, but in includes allotments, bridal ways, burial grounds, bus shelters, car parks, commons, community transport, public lavatories, public street cleaning, lighting, tourism litter bins and so on, a vast range of local matters that affect our communities. We enjoy cross-party support and cross-party support is a key element for the way we work. We are established as a valued form of local democracy and management. We have an increasing role in urban areas and an existing grassroots structure which is being built upon. Local councils should be supported to improve capacity, to deliver better services and represent the communityâs interests and existing powers. We should be strengthened in our new powers of partnership working and delegating additional services, budgets and decisions, to local councils within the framework which you know is being discussed throughout our national debates. Over the last ten years, my Lords, there have been several White Papers. I just refer to some of the legislation that recognises the importance of our role and the contribution of local councils seeking to strengthen and develop their functions. In 2000 we had the Rural White Paper that you will be familiar with, which referred to a Quality Parishes Scheme and the National Training Strategy as well as the Vital Villages Initiative. This supported development of community-led planning, tied in perhaps with todayâs issues. The Local Government White Paper 2001 increased the levels of expenditure, the ceiling, under Section 137 and subsequently, in line with inflation, introduced guidance on double-taxation, streamlining the borrowing approval system to local councils and providing grants to local councils to support the duty of best value. In 2005 we had the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act giving local councils new powers to issue fixed penalty notices for litter, graffiti, fly-posting and dog fouling. The Sustainable Communities Act 2007 reinforced the importance of local councils. We had in 2007, coming closer to home, the Local Government and Public Improvement in Health Act. This enabled local councils to use the wellbeing power to appoint additional councillors, to change their name and for new local councils to be created in London. I would suggest the last one is a particularly significant element, my Lords, creating new councils in London in major urban areas. The recent White Paper, Community Empowerment, published in July 2008 made firm commitments to empower local communities in both rural and urban areas through encouraging the creation of local councils, including a new right of appeal, further support for the quality scheme for parishes, encouraging participatory budgeting and the introduction of the census for local councillors, the use of petitions and a new duty to promote local democracy. Moving to the final part of this presentation, we have welcomed the current Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill. This aims to promote local democracy and economic development, but we would wish to strengthen the opportunity for local councils to be informed, consulted and involved in the functions of key public authorities and also to contribute to local economic strategies. Local councils play a pivotal role in community cohesion and neighbourhood management but they do require more information from, and closer working with, principal local authorities, sub-regional, regional and national public authorities who regularly provide and manage public facilities and services to communities. Accordingly, NALC, my Lord, firmly believes that local councillors should have a greater opportunity to be informed, consulted and involved in the function of key public authorities and contribute to developing local, sub-regional and regional strategies. My experience as a Vice Chairman of the Regional Assembly over nine years, and as they move into a changing structure, is that if you are not there your voice and the voice of local democracy is not expressed. Thank you, my Lords. 1693. MR SADLER: Thank you, Councillor Chater. I hope, my Lords, that gives you the idea of where we fit in the national sphere of government. Thank you. 1694. CHAIRMAN: Mr George, do you want to cross-examine the witness? Cross-examined by MR GEORGE 1695. MR GEORGE: Mr Chater, I wanted to cross-examine some witness about the details of the Petition, but would it be better if I left it to the next witness or should I leave it to you? (Councillor Chater) I think that may be better for the next witness. 1696. Very well, I will leave that over. You say you are a parish councillor? (Councillor Chater) Yes, indeed. 1697. Are you a parish councillor for an East Anglian area? (Councillor Chater) No, I am not. I am a parish councillor in Sussex in the south of the country. 1698. MR GEORGE: Thank you. 1699. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Chater, you may stand down. Mr Sadler, who is your next witness? |
|
Paul Howes
26th Jan '09 20:52 |
Day 5, post 2
MR JUSTIN GRIGGS, Sworn Examined by MR SADLER 1700. MR SADLER: Thank you, Mr Griggs. Would you just explain who you are, your background and what role you perform within the National Association of Local Councils, please? (Mr Griggs) My name is Justin Griggs. I am the Head of Policy and Development within the National Association. I have a background of working in local government both for a district council on entering a reorganisation and also for that unitary authority. I have been with the National Association now in a policy development improvement role for the last eight years. 1701. Thank you. Could you, for the benefit of their Lordships, outline the role that you play within our National Association in the way that you represent them, in the way that you communicate with ministers, secretaries of state and senior civil servants in the role of local government? (Mr Griggs) The responsibility I and my team have within the National Association is to support our improvement and development work in a number of areas that Councillor Chater has already outlined, and particularly in terms of our policy and our parliamentary and public affairs work to liaise with government, across political parties and with a whole range of other stakeholders to advance and protect and support the role of local councils. In particular, that has involved a long history of engagement on the White Papers and legislation that has been affecting local councils over the last ten years, in particular a number of those which Councillor Chater outlined. Another role of my team is on the delivery of a number of projects and programmes to support building the capacity and capabilities of local councils to achieve its objectives. 1702. CHAIRMAN: Can I just stop you a second, please, Mr Griggs. The Committee is not in the situation of being lobbied by people today. I am sure the parish councils have a big role in lobbying. Could we move to the Petition subjects, would that be possible? I think we have had a good deal about the excellent work that parish councils do nationally but it would be good to move towards the Petition subjects which I know you are very keen to raise. 1703. MR SADLER: Yes, my Lord. It was just really that Mr Griggs has got information that we are supported very well by government and that government support comes through to parish and town councils in the role that we perform. Yes, I am happy to go down that line and come back to the position if that is your wish, my Lord. 1704. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. 1705. MR SADLER: Would you like Mr Griggs to stand down? 1706. CHAIRMAN: I am not sure what else he has to say but I do think we ought to move on to the Petition. We have got a good view of the importance and role that the government sees for parish councils in the past and in the future. 1707. MR SADLER: Fine. 1708. LORD BROUGHAM AND VAUX: Do I take it, Mr Griggs, that you are not from Norfolk or Suffolk? (Mr Griggs) I am not, my Lord. I was born in south-east Kent. 1709. CHAIRMAN: Are you happy to move on to the next witness? 1710. MR SADLER: Yes, of course. 1711. CHAIRMAN: Before he stands down, Mr George, do you wish to cross-examine him? 1712. MR GEORGE: So far as the detail of what is sought in this Petition, should I be putting that to one of the next witnesses or to you, because it is the Associationâs Petition and I have some matters I want to explore about it and its implications? Are you the person I should put that to you or a later witness? (Mr Griggs) I would suggest the specifics of the Petition are put to other witnesses today. Our contribution as a National Association is to provide that backdrop in the context of local councils nationally and the role that they play. 1713. So this comes from the National Association but it is really, as it were, a regional petition, is it? If I want to suggest there are some difficulties in the way of the Petition, I should be putting that to one of the other witnesses you are saying, are you? (Mr Griggs) The Petition is put forward by the Norfolk Association of Local Councils and I think Councillor Chater has tried to outline to my noble Lordships our structure and the role the National Association plays in representing local councils through local associations such as Councillor Sadlerâs. 1714. Let me just confine myself to one matter. So far as development anywhere in the country, there are procedures, are there not, for the consultation of parish councils about the outcome of the proposals? (Mr Griggs) There are procedures for consultation with parish councils, yes. 1715. The mechanics of it is under a thing called the Town and Country Planning General Development Permitted Order 1995 and a parish council can indicate that it wants to be consulted and if it gives that indication then it has to be consulted and given 14 days to put in its observations on any particular planning application. Can we agree with that? (Mr Griggs) Yes, that is correct. 1716. Were you aware that in the area of the Broads a system operates whereby parish councils are notified of all applications for planning permission? Were you aware that operates? (Mr Griggs) On the matters relating to the Broads Authority in consultation with local councillors I would say that is a matter for the Norfolk Association because I would not be familiar with the specifics of your consultation. 1717. I am not concerned with general conservation issues, mine is a narrow question, that in relation to any application for planning permission, where it is the Broads Authority that is the local planning authority there is a system in operation whereby all the parish councils, and there are 93 parish councils which fall within the Broads Authorityâs area, are informed if the development is either within their parish council area or is in the immediately adjoining one and might affect their parish council. Were you aware of that matter? (Mr Griggs) I am not, Sir. As a national body I cannot say that we would be familiar with all of the consultation arrangements from all public authorities and principal authorities with planning powers with all 8,500 councils up and down England. 1718. In the Broads area, instead of just giving the bare 14 days, which is what is provided for by the Order, it has been decided to give an extra week, so there are 21 days of notification. I take it that is the sort of generous application of consultation provisions which your National Association would welcome? (Mr Griggs) We would certainly welcome any wider involvement and consultation with local councils wherever appropriate. Our evidence across the country from local councils is their experience is very patchy in how they are consulted on a range of matters from a range of public authorities, be it on planning or otherwise, from undergoing consultation through sending out documents for comment by councils through to much greater involvement of local councils, which is the aspiration which we would seek to achieve, rather than just pure consultation, a much more of a strengthened relationship on matters that will affect local councils and their communities. 1719. Your National Association is not aware, are they, of any particular complaint coming from the parish councils in the Broad Authorityâs area that they are not consulted on planning applications? (Mr Griggs) In terms of complaints from local councils nothing has been put forward to use within the National Association, although I know through our Norfolk Association there are concerns around that relationship and consultation with local councils. 1720. MR GEORGE: Thank you very much. 1721. CHAIRMAN: I think, Mr Griggs, we can invite you to stand down. Who is your next witness, Mr Sadler? The witness withdrew 1722. MR SADLER: My Lord Chairman, we can now go back to the prescribed order, which was the one you had originally. It is Councillor Clive Stockton of North Norfolk District Council. I should explain, my Lord, we set this out so we started local and worked downwards but, unfortunately, the first two witnesses have got appointments in the other place this afternoon and it was not possible for them to stay after lunch. I apologise for that. 1723. CHAIRMAN: No problem. Thank you. COUNCILLOR CLIVE STOCKTON, Sworn Examined by MR SADLER 1724. MR SADLER: Councillor Stockton, would you like to give their Lordships the benefit of your experience and background as a district councillor, please? (Councillor Stockton) Indeed. I am originally an engineer and a director of a multinational company, but in about 2003 I stood locally for the parish council in North Norfolk, which is in my home village on the coast, Happisburgh, that is next door to the Broads. Subsequently I stood for district council and today I am Deputy Leader of North Norfolk District Council. My coastal parish is where I live, but my ward for the District Council is what is known as Waterside Ward and that comprises four parishes, the parish of Hickling, Potterheigham, Ludham and Catfield, all of which are in the Broads area. My portfolio on the council includes coastal issues, which is high in importance in North Norfolk, economic development, housing and forward planning. 1725. Thank you. My Lord Chairman, I am aware that the witness is not facing the microphone and I just hope everyone can hear. I think at the back there was a bit of difficulty in hearing, but it is fine really. Could you also outline your experience that you have had with North Norfolk District Council in the planning process prior to April 2007, please? (Councillor Stockton) Yes, indeed. When I first became a district councillor I did go on to the planning committee. Subsequently, when I became a cabinet member I had to come off planning, but whilst I was on planning some of the experience was for planning issues on development control east, which we split into east and west in North Norfolk, which included the Broads area and at that time we carried out all planning issues on behalf of the Broads Authority. All planning came to the district council and went in front of the normal elected board for development control. I did have some experience of Broads issues as far as planning was concerned up to that time. Subsequently, planning went back to the Broads Authority so it is no longer the case that the district council carry out the Broads Authorityâs planning work. 1726. Would you just enlighten their Lordships whether you think the present regime of the planning authority of the Broads Authority is as good, bad or equal to what you used to have when it was the district council who had the main input to the Broads Authority on a planning application, please? (Councillor Stockton) My experience in recent times, and this comes from my attendance at the four parish councils which comprise my ward, is that there is a concern at parish council level that the breadth of understanding and decision-making and consultation, and listening to local people, that did occur when the district council carried out the planning authority for the Broads Authority is no longer there. There is genuine concern in my parishes that there needs to be some local involvement in the process. There is a concern that it has a tendency to become autocratic. My parishes have voiced concerns over certain planning applications. I do have to say it is true that parish councils will be consultees. I, because I am a district councillor covering a part of the Broads are, do receive details of planning applications in the Broads are which I represent and I have the opportunity to comment. Nevertheless, my parishes do feel that there should be more in-depth involvement by having some democratically elected members as part of the authority. 1727. Can you clarify how that involvement could be improved? (Councillor Stockton) Well, I believe that as far as the Broads Authority members are concerned, I understand that proposals will be for district councils to be represented and appointees through the secretary of state. I do believe that not only would democracy be served but people would feel considerably more at home locally with the process were there to be a number of locally elected people as part of the Broads Authority because the Broads area at the end of is for many people a local working area. It tends to be almost viewed as a theme park but it is not, of course, it contains some very lively villages where people live and work and there is this feeling that they should be represented. 1728. In your role as a district councillor when the planning was held by the North Norfolk District Council, could you give some idea to their Lordships of the amount of time that was spent in the Planning Committee hearing applications and how the views of the parish and town councils within that particular area were put towards the committee and how they were able to express their views on planning applications. (Councillor Stockton) I could not give you the statistics of them in terms of how many applications North Norfolk actually did and I would be foolish to pretend I could. In terms of the applications, it would certainly be true to say that the committee was always minded of the special circumstances that occur in the Broads Authority in terms of the environment, the whole range of potential problems, including things like flood risk assessments, which the Council has commissioned and recently updated because a lot of the villages in my ward, for example, are seriously prone to flooding. What I can say is that those sorts of issues were quite hotly debated by the elected members of the District Councilâs Development Committee. Parish councils particularly have an input there, sometimes for positive, sometimes for negative. There are still concerns in two of my parishes, for example, that the flood risk assessment that has recently been completed is perhaps too draconian in terms of what it restricts. Nevertheless, the importance was the input of local knowledge and it is that that is part of the concern that is being expressed, along with all the complications which do accrue when you are looking at any kind of development within an area like the Broads. 1729. Thank you. Just one last point. Could you confirm to their Lordships that North Norfolk District Council is the largest council within Norfolk with the most parishes within the Broads area? (Councillor Stockton) I believe that to be the case, yes. Certainly we cover the biggest slice of the Broads area. 1730. MR SADLER: Thank you. My Lord Chairman, I hope later, if I get the opportunity, I can explore this a bit further with some evidence that I have got. 1731. CHAIRMAN: Of course. Thank you, Mr Sadler. Mr George? Cross-examined by MR GEORGE 1732. MR GEORGE: Councillor Stockton, the situation at the present time is that your District Council, North Norfolk District Council, appoints, does it not, one of its members to sit on the Broads Authority? (Councillor Stockton) That is true. 1733. In addition, there are two members of Norfolk County Council who sit on the Broads Authority? (Councillor Stockton) I understand so, yes. 1734. In addition to those three members, there are another six members who are appointed by other local authorities, including Suffolk County Council and other district councils? (Councillor Stockton) I believe so, yes. 1735. So, of the total of the 21 members of the Authority, nine of them are people who have stood at the hustings, as it were, initially to be elected member of their local authority? (Councillor Stockton) Indeed so. 1736. CHAIRMAN: Councillor Stockton, could you look at the Committee, not because we do not trust you but if we cannot hear with the microphones you will not get transcribed properly. 1737. MR GEORGE: You said that your ward included four parishes all of which were in the Broads Authority area. Could you just repeat what the four parishes were? (Councillor Stockton) They are Hickling, Potterheigham, Ludham and Catfield. 1738. You say they are all in the Broads area but the truth of the matter is they are all partly in the Broads area, is that not right? (Councillor Stockton) That is the case, some bits of the parishes are outside. 1739. In all cases the majority of the parish is actually outside the Broadsâ executive area, is it not? (Councillor Stockton) Not the case I would think in Hickling. Possibly the case in Potterheigham and Catfield. They are certainly viewed as Broads villages and I would suggest that Hickling is almost entirely in the Broads area, but I could be mistaken, I have no map in front of me. 1740. It is an oddity, is it not, that so far as the Broads Authority, because of the shape of the Broads, in fact, a very substantial number of parish councils have part of their area within it? The figure is 93 parish councils actually have part of their area within the Broadsâ executive area. (Councillor Stockton) I believe that is so. It is also the case that when we have had things like LEEDA+, which was a European scheme for providing money for Broads based areas that, in fact, LEEDA+ fell over into parishes outside of the Broads, so it covered a slightly larger area than the Broads. This is collectively viewed as the Broads area. 1741. I do not know whether you have looked at the position so far as the national parks generally, and you may say they are no concern of yours, but the difference between the Broads and the national parks is that the national parks are, as it were, extensive areas, not long linear areas such as the Broads and, therefore, they will have numbers of parish councils which are entirely within the area of the National Park. (Councillor Stockton) I would think so, but I am not familiar with the national parks. 1742. So far as the new system which operates, let us look at it at two stages. The first is the system which operated from 1989. That was that the Broads Authority became the planning authority, that is the body charged with determining the outcome of planning applications where the site of the proposed development was within the Broads Authority area. (Councillor Stockton) But it was, in effect, subcontracted to the district councils until, from memory, 2005. 1743. What they subcontracted out was the original handling of the matter, is that not right, that is the consultation on the application, but the actual decision still remained, did it not, a matter for the Broads Authority? (Councillor Stockton) That is the case, but all the background work was carried out by officers or committee members of the district council. 1744. Then the change was that the Broads Authority brought the matter in-house and itself took over the processing of the application, so you make your planning application straight to them, and although there was consultation with people outside, the publicity and the matching of the planning application against the various plans and the writing of the reports and so forth was all being done within the Broads Authority. That was the change, was it not? (Councillor Stockton) That was the change, indeed, yes. 1745. I do not know whether you read the evidence, but the fact was that the Broads Authority was being criticised because it was being so slow in dealing with its planning applications and as a result of taking the matter in hand it is now doing much better meeting the Government targets for the time which it should take to publicise, consider and determine planning applications. Were you aware of that matter? (Councillor Stockton) No, I was not. 1746. What Mr Packman said when he was giving evidence was that under the old system there was a tendency for the matter not to be the priority of the district councils because so far as Government statistics, and it happens that your grant relates in part to how quickly you process your planning applications, there was no incentive for district councils to be expeditious in processing the Broads Authority applications because that did not go into their statistics. The Broads Authority, as I say, has found by taking it over doing it themselves the whole matter can be done much more quickly because it then becomes a priority as opposed to being a secondary matter. Were you aware of that background? (Councillor Stockton) I am aware of that, of course, yes. It is true that there is now part of Government grant to local authorities called the Planning Delivery Grant, now called the Housing and Planning Delivery Grant. I am aware parts of that is based on meeting targets in terms of the time to process planning applications. There are other changes that have occurred recently in that planning is now based upon a new system called the LDF, or Local Development Framework, which is going through to replace what was previously the Local Plan. There are a number of other changes. It would not surprise me that in recent years there is pressure on all local authorities to meet better targets and to get as much from the planning delivery grant as possible. I would say that does not preclude the possibility, as this is a Bill that is now going through, of getting more local representation. I do not think that would be in any way disadvantageous and certainly from the perspective of a lot of people in my parishes it would have the advantage of giving not only the reality but the feeling that they have a local involvement. 1747. Councillor Stockton, there are just two short documents, and the one refers to the other, which I have asked that they be circulated. This is the last matter related to this question of planning applications. (Same circulated) Councillor, you will recall that I mentioned to the last witness the Town and Country Planning General Development Procedure Order, and that is at the top of the document called âBroads Authority Procedure â¦â, and he agreed with me that there was a provision whereby parish councils could be consulted. You will be aware, I hope, that the various parish councils have indicated that they want to be consulted on planning applications and that does happen at the present time; is that not right? (Councillor Stockton) That is the case and, as I have mentioned, I as a district councillor and my colleagues also are given details of applications for response, yes. 1748. They are then given a time in which to make comments and, as I indicated, in the Broads Authority area, they are given 21 days to make their comments and those comments then get reported, do they not, to whoever is making the decision on the planning application? (Councillor Stockton) That would be the normal procedure. I have not attended a planning board within the Broads Authority but that would be the normal procedure, yes. 1749. In your own district council, North Norfolk District Council, some planning applications are determined by your planning committee or development committee, however it is called, and some are determined by officers, are they not? (Councillor Stockton) That is the case. There is a procedure where officers would normally look at an application and decide whether or not it was within policy and had no major ramifications. If there were no objections from parish councils or other people then they would look at deciding it under navigation powers. If, however, it is a major application and there are objections, there are complications in terms of the application being against policy, or indeed if a local member calls it in, which is the phrase that is used, and says, âI want this to appear before committeeâ, that would go before an elected committee of members. 1750. The vast majority of planning applications up and down the country are actually determined by officers, are they not, rather than going to the relevant planning committee? (Councillor Stockton) That is the case. It depends, of course, geographically what that proportion would be. I would suggest, and I would not be able to give statistical information today, that in a lot of areas of North Norfolk, and particularly those that are sensitive in terms of flooding and other similar issues, a higher proportion would in fact go before members. 1751. What this document called âBroads Authority Procedure â¦â sets out on page 2, under the heading âDecision making â¦â, under four heads 1-4, is the position as to what determines whether the matter is dealt with by an officer or by a member, and the system operating is pretty much the same, is it not, as operates within your own council? (Councillor Stockton) Yes, broadly it is. 1752. The second document which was circulated is called Broads Authority â Parish Council Charterâ. I do not know â have you come across this document? (Councillor Stockton) No, I have not. 1753. This is what all the parishes have got and this is the parish council charter setting out what are the objectives of the Broads Authority in relation to how they deal with their parish councils. As we can see on the first page, one has got all the usual headlines and so forth that you get in White Papers; some people call them jargon phrases, but at any rate they are desirable aims â partnership, helpfulness, consistency and so forth, and how the Broads Authority tries to deal with those when looking at planning decisions, which are on page 2, and at the very important matter which is enforcement, which is where someone has done something naughty, that is, in the sense that he has developed his land without planning permission and it is necessary to take steps against him. There is a code which operates this with a full input from the parish councils, and that is how it ought to be, is it not? (Councillor Stockton) Indeed. I find this absolutely laudable and it is absolutely proper, of course, that local councils should be involved. Nevertheless, I believe their involvement could be improved by having a number of democratically elected members. 1754. MR GEORGE: Can we just turn to your Petition? 1755. CHAIRMAN: Mr George, before you do that, in this paper you have just circulated, Broads Authority Procedure, you refer to the Planning Committee of the Broads Authority. The planning committee of the North Norfolk District Council we have heard, of course, is made up of members of the council. Who is on the Planning Committee of the Authority and are they part of the elected members or the appointed members? 1756. MR GEORGE: It is a panel made up of members of the Authority but it is not confined to the local authority members. There is a very simple reason, that there are national interests involved and therefore the Broads Authority as a whole is represented, so it goes towards the make-up of its Planning Committee. 1757. CHAIRMAN: You may want to take some more instructions. 1758. MR GEORGE: I am told the majority of the Planning Committee are local authority members but they are not exclusively so. 1759. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr George. 1760. MR GEORGE: Do you have a copy, Councillor, of your Petition? (Councillor Stockton) No, I do not, sir. 1761. A copy is being put to you, and let us go, please, within that Petition to the second page because it is there, two paragraphs above where we see âSchedule 7â, that we see a paragraph which begins, âIt is your petitionersâ hopeâ â let me read it to you â âthat your Lordships will consider favourably that 2 parish or town councillors could be nominated from the Broads Area Communities to stand for election and appointed by the democratic process for terms of office that could be agreed.â Do you see that? (Councillor Stockton) Yes, I do. 1762. That is envisaging that in some way a mechanism could be provided that for a constituency â and it is not quite clear what the constituency would be but presumably it would be all those who at any rate live within the Broads executive area â they would be electing certain members by direct election to serve on the Broads Authority. Do I understand it correctly? (Councillor Stockton) I think so. 1763. Then in the last sentence of that paragraph it says, âIt is further hoped that the 2 members could be appointed from the 10 DEFRA appointees made by the Secretary of State as part of his/her appointmentsâ. Do you see that? (Councillor Stockton) I do. 1764. I think that is therefore looking to a long-term position where one has two elected members and that the ten Defra appointees presumably are going to reduce to eight. Is that right? (Councillor Stockton) I believe so, yes. 1765. You are probably aware that in August of this year Mr Sadler sent an email to the Promoters â and the Committee have already looked at that when I was opening it; it was in the correspondence file with Petitioners in tab 4 â making it plain that you were not seeking from this Committee that there should be direct elections of parish councillors to the Broads Authority. Were you aware of that? (Councillor Stockton) No, I was not. 1766. Just so that you are not confused; it is quite important that you should know what it is you are here supporting and I do not want to treat you unfairly, could we just have a copy of the Petitioner Correspondence file? It is tab 4, about eight pages in, and at the top it has the name âStephen Wiggsâ, and it is from Jack Sadler, 22 August 2008. (Councillor Stockton) I have it. 1767. What Mr Sadler very helpfully made plain was that all he was going to be seeking was that the 1988 Act be amended so that, instead of the Secretary of State appointing ten members from boating, conservation, farming and land-based recreation interests, those ten should include two who were representing parish councils. I hope Mr Sadler will be able to confirm that I have correctly summarised the position, so the result would be that boating, conservation, farming, land owning and land based recreation representation would go down from ten to eight and two would come in nominated by the Secretary of State to represent parish council interests. Were you aware that that is what is now being sought? (Councillor Stockton) No, I was not. It is my understanding that direct election of two members was what was being sought. 1768. That is the difficult thing for us as Promoters, because this letter puts forward a specific amendment to the Bill and we can see it there set out, and over the page on page 2 we can see that the ten are to include that not less than two appointed by the Secretary of State shall be parish councillors. That, I think, has come forward in the realisation that to try and devise a new electoral structure for the Broads at this stage of the Bill would be something that really could not be contemplated, and that is why Mr Sadler wrote this letter making it quite clear to us what it was that you were seeking from their Lordshipsâ House today. You have not been kept informed on that matter? (Councillor Stockton) No. It has to be said that I am here today as something of a stand-in because of a bereavement in one of my colleaguesâ families, so I am here at relatively short notice. I was not aware of that amendment. Nevertheless, in principle I believe it does still have the possibility of satisfying people I deal with on a daily basis who have this concern about democratic input. I can understand, of course, the difficulties in terms of an election, although they are not impossible because they could be done on the same sort of term that parish council elections are done so that it could be made part of a parish council election cycle. However, I can understand that that is a complication, so I can understand also therefore where this amendment in the email has come from. 1769. Let us just stick with the amendment, and I think it is the only one on the table, as it were. If the various other interest groups are to be reduced from having a representation of ten down to eight but two are to become parish council representatives you probably would not expect those other interest groups to be terribly happy. (Councillor Stockton) Possibly not. 1770. And in particular, when this was not a matter which was raised when the matter was before the House of Commons where there was both a Second Reading debate and the Bill went into committee, as we are doing here, and was there for two days and so forth but that suggestion was not being put forward by any Norfolk parish council or any association of parish councils at that stage. (Councillor Stockton) I do not know why it was not put forward at that stage so I cannot comment. What I would like to say though is that the bodies that are listed â boating, conservation, farming and land owning, land based recreation, et cetera, do not have a heading that says âLocal Interestsâ, and that is really, I think, the principle which I am supporting, that there is by definition a local interest from those people who live and work in the Broads area and they should in my opinion be represented. 1771. But that in part is why one has the nominated representatives, because the Broads represent more than a purely local interest. So far as the local interest is concerned, you have got elected members from the district councils and the county councils but there are various other interests which are broader than that and that is why one has the Secretary of Stateâs nationally appointed members, is it not? (Councillor Stockton) Indeed, and I would not dispute that for a moment, the issues are broader but that does not preclude the local issue. District councils are, of course, represented but they are the district councils that are on the boundary of the Broads Authority. There is no direct representation within the geographic area of the Authority. 1772. But it is perfectly open to North Norfolk District Council to appoint as its member one of its members whose ward includes part of the Broads Authority, it is perfectly open to them to do so, but alternatively they may decide that they are simply going to appoint the person who they think would be best suited to fulfil the particular function. At any rate, that matter is left to the decision, is it not, of North Norfolk District Council? (Councillor Stockton) Indeed it is, and the other councils. 1773. And similarly, Norfolk County Council have their two appointees and they can choose; they can have county councillors whose areas are in parts of the county through which the Broads Authority and the Broads run, or they can choose otherwise. That is for them. (Councillor Stockton) That is, indeed, the case but I would like to say that in Norfolk as it stands at the moment, although we may, of course, go unitary in the not too distant future, the reality is we have a three tier system, we have county, districts, and parish and town councils, and as we sit here now what is being suggested represents only two of those tiers, and that is my concern. 1774. So far as North Norfolk District Council, have they carried out any consultation with the other groups who are going to lose two of their members if the Parish Councilsâ Petition were to find favour with their Lordships? (Councillor Stockton) Not that I am aware of, no. 1775. Were you aware that the Broads Authority has carried out consultation on this matter? (Councillor Stockton) No, I was not. 1776. Because in our tab 13, and I hope I will not have to take the time to go through it, the Broads Authority sent details of your Petition to the Royal Yachtsâ Association, to the Inland Waterwaysâ Association, to the Council for National Parks and to the NFU, as well as to various other bodies, and their Lordships have got in that tab responses from the RYA, the IWA and the campaign, and they added a letter from the National Farmersâ Union, and all of them, whilst understanding the parish councilsâ position, say that it should not be done at the expense of the ten members appointed by the Secretary of State. But that is a matter you were not aware of? (Councillor Stockton) No, I was not directly aware of that. The only comment I would make is that I would not necessarily believe it was appropriate to ask the opinion of non elected bodies whether or not there should be democratic representation. I think that is quite honestly the wrong way round. 1777. They were being asked what was their view on their ten allocation being reduced to eight, and that was a fair matter, was it not, to ask them their view? You may say: âWell, they are bound to be self interested in itâ and that is a different matter, but it is fair to ask, is it not? (Councillor Stockton) Yes, it is. 1778. But that is not a matter that your council, or I think so far as we are aware any of the other councils, has attempted to do? (Councillor Stockton) No, I believe they have not. Not as far as I am aware. 1779. Now, when the question of changing the representation on the Broads Authority was first raised, it was raised by the Select Committee in the House of Commons. They said that they thought that a change to bring in the parish councils had merit. Were you aware of that? (Councillor Stockton) Yes, I was. 1780. But, they said, quite clearly they did not believe it should be done through this particular Bill; it would require a separate piece of legislation, they thought, which could itself be consulted upon. Were you aware of that matter? (Councillor Stockton) Yes, I was. 1781. Secondly, when this matter was been before Parliament and been debated, most recently in their Lordshipsâ House on the Second Reading of the Bill, were you aware that the Minister of State specifically addressed the whole question of parish council representation on the Broads Authority. Were you aware he dealt with it in his speech to their Lordships? (Councillor Stockton) No, I was not. 1782. What he said, again, was that it was premature; it was a matter which the Government would want to consider but at a later stage, and he did not believe it appropriate to try and alter this present Bill. You were not aware of that? (Councillor Stockton) No, I was not. 1783. Were you aware that there has been, last summer and autumn, a public consultation precisely on the issue as to what should be the form of representation of parish councils in national parks and on the Broads Authority in particular? Were you aware of that? (Councillor Stockton) No, not in detail. 1784. Well, let me just take you, if you are not aware of that, please, to one document in our big bundle at tab 11. On the first page, headed âConsultation on direct elections to English National Park and Broads authoritiesâ, and two thirds of the way down the page you will see a paragraph beginning: âthat does not imply I wish to see directly elected membersâ. Do you see that? (Councillor Stockton) Yes. 1785. And the Minister then set out what he had told the House of Commons and that was, two paragraphs from the bottom of the page: âI want to look at the issue across the piece because it is not only the Broads Authority that is affected. I want to understand the views of the other park authorities and the view of the many people who have an interest in our national parksâ. Do you see that? (Councillor Stockton) I do. 1786. And he went on to say three lines from the bottom of the page: âI will therefore issue a consultation on the future of the constitutionâ. Do you see that? (Councillor Stockton) I do. 1787. And if you will then just turn on a few pages you will come to a page which is a Defra document headed âConsultation on Direct Elections to English National Park and Broads authorities, July 2008â? (Councillor Stockton) I have that, yes. 1788. Do you know whether your authority responded to this document? (Councillor Stockton) Specifically no, I do not. I would be very surprised if it did not. 1789. We tried to find out looking at your website and so forth but there is nothing on it, so I am simply not quite sure what is the position, but there has been a consultation and just so that you see some of the questions, if you would go in that document and find page 8, which is the easiest to find, there is a page 7 which has the â7â written near the spine. (Councillor Stockton) Yes, I have it. 1790. And if you look there at question 4, you see this question: âDo you wish for the Broads to have parish members bearing in mind the overall size of the Authority and replacement of any existing members to accommodate them?â Do you see that particular question? (Councillor Stockton) Yes. 1791. You were not aware that that particular question was the subject of public consultation this autumn? (Councillor Stockton) I knew there was a consultation: I did not know the specifics of it. 1792. And that consultation has now come to an end, because people were asked to have their replies in in the latter part of last year, and it closed on Friday 28 November 2008, as we can see on page 7, and the situation is that the Department is considering the responses, and if normal practice follows, there will be another document which summarises the consultations and proposes the Governmentâs thoughts about a way forward. So we are in the interim position while Defra and the Minister are considering the responses to that question. Does that not suggest to you that it is rather premature to be asking this Committee to do something in this Bill, as it were, today? (Councillor Stockton) I do not feel qualified to answer that question really, but one question I would myself put is that this presupposes that the number of members on the Broads Authority is limited to 21, and one other solution is if there is a very definite gap that could be created by dropping two of the appointed members in favour of parish council members, then is there any reason why there could not be additional? I simply go back to the principle that I believe that you are right, national parks and the Broads Authority represent a much broader issue than the local issue, but that is not at the absolute preclusion of the local input. 1793. And that is precisely the sort of matter which the Government and Defra are going to be considering, which is if there is to be parish council representation should it be direct election, and what effect should it have on total numbers of the Broads Authority in a situation where certainly Dr Packman has said he believes that the 21 at present is still on the largish side for an authority. So he said he would be opposed to larger numbers, but that is all the sort of matter which is going to be considered by the Government in the round in the light of the consultation, is it not? (Councillor Stockton) So it would appear, yes. In terms of the numbers I would simply comment that most local authorities have considerably more than 21 members. Our own authority has 49. 1794. But most authorities, of course, work now through a cabinet structure, do they not, with a small group, in effect, taking the decisions and a scrutiny committee of other members reviewing them? (Councillor Stockton) Indeed. That is the case. 1795. MR GEORGE: Thank you very much indeed. 1796. CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to re examine, Mr Sadler, or not? 1797. MR SADLER: Do I have the opportunity to come back, my lord Chairman? 1798. CHAIRMAN: Yes, but I do hope we can stick to the Petition because in the Petition it does not say that you wish to increase the number of members. Re examined by MR SADLER 1799. MR SADLER: I just want to refer really to all the documents that have been handed out this morning, and the question I would like to put to Councillor Stockton refers to the Broads Authority Parish Council Charter. Halfway down we have a mention there: âTo gain feedback on its development control service, the Broads will hold âParish Surgeriesâ within its areaâ. Has this been brought to your notice and have you any evidence to offer their Lordships that this is actually happening? (Councillor Stockton) No, I have none at all. 1800. Although the Broads Authority have been the planning authority, in fact, since April 2007? (Councillor Stockton) Indeed, yes. 1801. MR SADLER: The second point, my Lord Chairman, I want to raise was on the second page, âNotification of planning applications. In order to assist in the decision making process, the Broads will aim to provide Parish Councils with a copy of all valid applications.â As I see it at the moment, and I will bring evidence, if I may, when I come to my turn, the application is, in fact, advertised in the local paper, which is the Eastern Daily Press, with a response within 14 days to that advert from the date it appears, and it categorically states that those plans are available and details of that planning application at the headquarters of the Broads Authority, though it does not say that they will be forwarded to parish and town councils. Whether that is something that is put in when the parish or town council ask for details and make their response I would not like to comment because I have not seen how that works, but this says those papers will be sent 1802. CHAIRMAN: Mr Sadler, this sounds more like a winding up speech than re examination of Councillor Stockton. Do you want to re examine him on anything he has said, or not? 1803. MR SADLER: No. I think in fairness the Petition was, in fact, drafted by the Executive Committee with my help and my co operation on behalf of the Norfolk County Council 1804. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Sadler, but, again, that is for the winding up. If you have no further questions, the witness can stand down, please I am sorry. Lord Methuen? Examined by THE COMMITTEE 1805. LORD METHUEN: Can you just clarify something for me: does your district council appoint a member at the moment? (Councillor Stockton) Yes, indeed. 1806. How is that member selected? (Councillor Stockton) I would have to pass on that question. It would be a matter of somebody who probably lives in the area but certainly has an interest in the Broads area. I know the particular councillor that is appointed; how that process was done I cannot answer, I was not part of it. However, it would normally be put forward by the leaders of the various political groups in the Council and then would be debated at full Council, so all outside appointees have to be done by the full Council and all members, so that would have gone through full Council at some point. 1807. MR GEORGE: Can I just help Lord Methuen, that the representative from North Norfolk District Council at present is the member for Stelham which includes part of the Broads Authority executive area and that lady is actually the Chairman of the Broads Authority Planning Committee, so that is how it works at present. (Councillor Stockton) Indeed that is the case. It is Councillor Sheridan, I understand. The Witness Withdrew 1808. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr Sadler, your next witness is Councillor Snowling so perhaps he could come forward. |
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